Takako Kunigoshi entered the Kobukan Dojo in 1933, just prior to her graduation from Japan Women’s Fine Arts University. One of the few female students at the Kobukan Dojo, she trained seriously, and gained the full respect of both Ueshiba Sensei and the uchideshi. A skilled artist, Kunigoshi did the technical illustrations for the 1934 book Budo Renshu, which was given to certain students in lieu of a teaching license. Kunigoshi later trained at the private dojo of Admiral Isamu Takeshita for several years, and taught self-defense courses to various women’s groups.

Following the war, Kunigoshi did not resume her aikido training. After her retirement, she taught the Japanese tea ceremony out of her home in Ikebukuro, Tokyo for many years.

国越孝子于1933年进入皇武馆道场，当时她正值日本女子美术大学毕业前夕。作为皇武馆道场为数不多的女学员之一，她修行刻苦，赢得了植芝老师及内弟子们的一致尊重。凭借出色的绘画功底，国越孝子为1934年出版的《武道练习》绘制了技术插图；该书在当时被授予部分学员，用以替代正式的教员执照。此后，国越曾在竹下勇大将的私人道场训练多年，并向多个妇女团体教授女子防身术。

战后，国越孝子没有恢复合气道的训练。退休后，她在东京池袋的家中教授日本茶道，以此度过了许多年。

Editor: Sensei, how did you come to begin training at the Kobukan Dojo?

Kunigoshi Sensei: I had wanted to study kembu sword dancing. My father was a soldier, and he told me it would be all right if I went to the dojo in Wakamatsu cho. Some friends and I went there, and we said we wanted to study kembu. “We don’t do kembu here, we do aiki; but there is a training session in progress now if you’d like to watch for a while,” we were told. After that, I was hooked.

I started in January of 1933, the year that I graduated from school. I went on my own to the 6 a.m. morning class, on my way to school.

编辑： 老师，请问您当初是怎么开始在皇武馆道场修行的？

国越老师： 我那时候本来想学剑舞。我父亲是一名军人，他告诉我如果去若松町的那个道场应该没问题。于是我和几个朋友去了那里，说我们想学剑舞。对方告诉我们：“我们这儿不教剑舞，我们练的是合气；不过现在正有一场练习，你们有兴趣可以看一会儿。” 看完之后，我就被深深吸引住了。

我是从1933年1月开始练习的，那年我正好大学毕业。我当时都是独自去参加早上6点的早课，练完后再去学校。

How many daily training sessions were there back then?

There was the 6 a.m. class and another morning practice at about 10 a.m. Then, for people who worked in the daytime, there were three other periods in the evening. Then the uchideshi could train anytime in between those hours, too.

当时每天有多少场练习？

有清晨6点的课，还有一节是在上午10点左右。然后，为了照顾白天工作的人，晚上还有三节课。至于内弟子，在这些时段之间的任何时间也都可以练习。

How frequently did you train?

Usually every morning.

您当时练习得频繁吗？

通常是每天早晨都去。

Were classes held every morning?

Let’s see, were classes held on Saturdays? I think the only day off was Sunday.

每天早晨都有课吗？

让我想想…周六有课吗？我记得好像只有周日才休息。

I imagine there weren’t very many women among the students in those days.

There were only two of us! The other woman was two or three years younger than me. Even so, Ueshiba Sensei never made us feel different by changing things because we were women.

Things were not like they are now, and the art was not so well-known. I would say that there were about six or seven uchideshi who lived and slept in the dojo, and probably about the same number of people who came from their own homes.

我猜那时候学员里的女性应该不多吧？

当时只有我们两个！另一位女性比我小两三岁。即便如此，植芝老师也从未因为我们是女性，就改变教法，让我们觉与众不同。

那时候的情况和现在不一样，这项武术还没那么出名。我记得当时吃住在道场的内弟子大约有六七个，从家里通勤来练习的人数大概也差不多。

What was the training like when you were a beginner?

Someone would grab my hand, and I would be shown how to release it.

您刚开始入门时的训练是什么样的？

会有人抓住我的手，然后老师会演示如何挣脱或化解。

Who were the uchideshi in those days?

There was Mr. Yonekawa, Mr. Shirata, Mr. Funahashi, and Mr. Yukawa. I believe Mr. Yonekawa was the oldest among our group. Last year [1979], he and I made a trip to the Kasama Inari Shrine¹ together on our way home from the ceremony that was held to mark the tenth anniversary of O-Sensei’s death.

当时的内弟子都有谁？

有米川先生、白田先生、舟桥先生和汤川先生。我想米川先生是我们这群人里年纪最长的。去年［1979年］，在参加完开祖逝世十周年祭奠仪式后，回程途中我还和他一起去参拜了笠间稻荷神社¹。

Who were your training partners?

Mr. Funahashi was the shortest of the uchideshi, and I’m short too, so we trained together a lot. If I trained with Mr. Yonekawa, I had to do this [gesturing], and he had those big hands. My wrists grew thicker. I thought to myself, “This is disgusting for a woman. My wrists are becoming thick, and they look like a man’s.” After I practiced a lot, the problem began to disappear, but in the beginning my arms became hard. When you are faced with a partner whose arms are like clubs, you have to do this [gesture]. I trained the most with Funahashi. He later died of a respiratory disease.

When we women trained, we had to change in a very small space. There was no dressing room. I don’t how we managed to change into our training clothes with all those men there. Somehow we would do like this [gesturing] with our kimono, and put our keikogi [training uniform] on quickly from above and the hakama from below. I was pretty good at it. There were lots of keikogi and clothes hanging down above us.

您的练习搭档都有谁？

舟桥先生是内弟子中身材最矮小的，而我也很矮，所以我们经常在一起练习。如果我和米川先生对练，我不得不这样［做手势示意］，而且他的手特别大。那段时间我的手腕都变粗了，我心想：“这对女人来说简直太糟糕了，手腕变得这么粗，看起来跟男人的手一样。” 练久了之后，这个问题倒慢慢消失了，但刚开始时我的手臂变得非常僵硬。当你面对一个手臂像棍棒一样的对手时，你不得不这样应对［做手势］。我和舟桥先生练得最多。他后来死于呼吸系统疾病。

那时候我们女性练习，得在一个非常狭小的空间里换衣服。当时没有专门的更衣室，我也不知道在那么多男人在场的情况下，我们是怎么换好衣服的。总之，我们会像这样［做手势］掩着和服，飞快地从上面套上稽古衣，再从下面穿上袴。我当时对此还挺擅长的。我们头顶上方总是挂满了稽古衣和各种衣服。

Would you describe Ueshiba Sensei’s approach to teaching?

No matter what we asked him, I think we always got the same answer. Anyway, there wasn’t a soul there who could understand any of the things he said. I guess he was talking about spiritual subjects, but the meaning of his words was just beyond us. Later, we would stand around and ask each other, “Just what was it Sensei was talking about anyway?”

您能描述一下植芝老师的教学方法吗？

无论我们问他什么，我认为得到的答案似乎总是那一套。反正当时在场的人里，没有一个能听懂他在说什么。我猜他是在讲关于精神层面的东西，但其中的含义对我们来说实在太深奥了。练习结束后，我们经常站在那儿互相打听：“老师刚才到底在讲什么呀？”

Did he speak about the kamisama?

Yes. He was originally an Omoto believer. The kamisama worshiped at the dojo were the kamisama of the Omoto religion. I once went with him to Ayabe.

他会谈到神吗？

是的。他最初是大本教的信徒。道场里供奉的神灵也是大本教的神。我还曾陪同他一起去过绫部。

Did he explain the mechanics of techniques?

No, he didn’t. I think they say ikkyo and nikyo nowadays, but in the old days Ueshiba Sensei said ikkajo and nikajo, etc. He would just say, “You do ikkajo like this.” Later, he would make comments to students such as to do it more this way, or that way, or he might say, “Don’t put power in that direction,” to the person who was his partner. He taught Funahashi and Yonekawa directly in some detail.

他会解释招式背后的力学原理吗？

不，他不会。我想现在大家都叫一教和二教，但在过去，植芝老师称之为一箇条和二箇条等等。他只会说：“一箇条要像这样练。” 随后，他会对学员提出一些建议，比如要多这样做，要那样做，或者对他当时的搭档说：“不要往那个方向使劲。” 他对舟桥和米川会直接提出一些比较详细的指导。

Did Ueshiba Sensei observe people during training and correct their mistakes?

Yes, he corrected their mistakes.

植芝老师在训练时会观察大家并纠正错误吗？

是的，他会纠正大家的错误。

Did you have many chances to be thrown directly by O-Sensei?

Yes, I did, and he certainly didn’t pull any punches because I was female. You often hear it said that in aikido, the size of one’s body is not so relevant, but I think there is a certain handicap in being small. When my partner took hold of my arm, his fingers usually wrapped around so that his own fingertips overlapped. Then when I tried to grasp my partner, there was a significant gap between my thumb and fingertips. I had to use both hands and grip for all I was worth, and then I would just about equal their single-handed hold. That’s a big disadvantage. I had  to grip so hard that I ended up getting stiff, and I worried about being inflexible. Two or three years after I quit training, I was still pretty rigid.

您被开祖亲自摔的机会多吗？

是的，我有很多这样的机会。他显然没有因为我是女性就手下留情。人们常说在合气道中体型并不重要，但我认为身材矮小确实存在一定的劣势。当搭档抓住我的手臂时，他的手指通常能绕一圈并重叠在一起；而当我试图抓住对方时，我的大拇指和指尖之间还有很大的空隙。我不得不使出全身力气用双手去抓，才勉强能抵得上他们单手的力量。这是一个巨大的劣势。因为我必须抓得非常用力，导致身体变得很僵硬，我当时很担心自己会不灵活。甚至在我停止训练两三年后，身体依然相当僵硬。

In those days, did beginners also wear hakama?

Everyone wore them. When you joined, you had to buy a training uniform, and that included a hakama. Most people used black, but some had white. At first, I bought a white one, but it got so filthy that I took it home and dyed it black, because they were so hard to wash. 

在那个年代，初学者也要穿袴吗？

每个人都穿。你入会的时候就必须买一套训练服，其中就包括袴。大多数人穿黑色的，也有一些人穿白色的。起初我买了一条白色的，但实在太容易脏了，而且很难洗，最后我把它带回家染成了黑色。

We have seen old movies where the bayonet was used. Did you ever use that weapon in practice in those days?

Yes, we did. Someone would thrust with a wooden bayonet, and we would try to deal with that kind of attack. We also worked against a spear attack. There was just about every type of major weapon in the dojo. Even I was expected to have practiced against the cutting attack of a wooden sword. We were expected not only to be able to avoid the attacks of a person armed with a weapon, but also to take the role of the attacker and wield the weapons. When you cut, the weapon should make a high-pitched whistling sound, but at first it’s not so easy to get that perfect sound. It’s more of a low whooshing sound! After a year or so, though, I was able to get a good pitch.

我们在一些老电影里见过用刺枪的。您当时在练习中用过那种武器吗？

用过。有人会用木制的刺枪向你刺来，我们要练习如何应对这种攻击。我们也练习过应对长矛。道场里几乎涵盖了所有主要的武器。即使是我，也被要求练习应对木剑的劈砍。我们不仅要学会避开持械者的攻击，还要扮演攻击者的角色去挥舞武器。当你挥剑劈砍时，武器应该发出清脆的破空声，但起初很难发出那种完美的声音，更多是低沉的“呼呼”声。不过练了一年左右，我就能挥出那种清脆的声音了。

When you were training, were there any fixed monthly fees?

No, there weren’t. In the old days, the teacher and students were really like a unit. You could say, “Hey everybody! I just bought some sweet rolls. Come and get it!” I guess that would be a little hard to do now. Sensei’s wife would have lunch ready for us, and in return, we would completely clean the dojo. When that was finished, we would play badminton for an hour or two in the dojo. We felt like we were all members of the family. As far as numbers, I’m sure there couldn’t have been anywhere near even one-fifth the number of people there are today. Sometimes, someone would arrange some flowers in the entry hall alcove; people would do things like that.

您训练那时候，收固定的月费吗？

不，没有。在过去，老师和学生真的就像一个整体。你可以喊一声：“嘿大家！我刚买了些甜面包，快来吃啊！”我想这在现在可能很难办到。师母会为我们准备好午餐，作为回报，我们会把道场打扫得干干净净。打扫完之后，我们还会在道场里打一两个小时的羽毛球。我们感觉大家就像一家人。至于人数，我敢肯定当时的人数连现在的五分之一都不到。有时候，还会有人在入口处的壁龛里插上一些花，大家经常做这类贴心的事情。

It’s wonderful that you still have contact with your friends from that period.

There were so few of us that our ties with each other were quite strong. I suppose now that everything is so big, no one knows who’s coming or going, but I remember that if someone said, “I have to go to the country, but I don’t have the cash,” right away another member would say, “Don’t worry, I’ll loan you some,” just like that.

您至今还和那个时期的朋友保持联系，这真是太棒了。

那时候我们人很少，所以彼此之间的纽带非常牢固。我想现在规模变大了，谁来谁走可能都没人留意。但我记得当时如果有人说：“我得回一趟乡下，但手头没现金，” 马上就会有另一位成员说：“别担心，我借给你，” 就是这么简单直接。